Comments on Tory Bear - right-wing political gossip: The Last Word

A fascinating debate that seems to have got a litt...

2009-11-25T14:43:25.049Z

A fascinating debate that seems to have got a little personal, but at the heart is the question of free speech. It seems in politics all sides like to publicly wish ill on their opponents and throw scorn on them in often fairly childish ways.

There is a big difference between encouraging hate and just deriding but often it can be a fine line and one that is often overstepped in politics where there are no rules. I think the problem with this sort of political discourse is that actually it confuses the public. Calling Cameron or Edward Timpson etc a 'toff' didn't work. Calling Blair a Liar didn't work. So will calling Brown and Darling Deadwood work any better.

There seems to be too much negativity and name calling which can only contribute to public cynicism and apathy. Conflating these isues of political banter with freedom to say anything is a problem. On the one hand it trivialises bullying; on the other allows any proper political criticism to be labelled as sexist, racist etc. Perhaps what we need is a better standard of discourse in public life. Where a party leader is criticised for his politics and not his age, eyesight, background, behaviour as a teenager - I could go on - and more sense in what we are able to openly discuss without being castigated. It is easy to close down an argument by calling your opponent a fascist, sadly that seems to be done all too often by politicians who make and break the same rules and standards on a daily basis.

That was my rant, all criticism will be taken as a hurtful and personal attack :)

@ Dick Puddlecote: Tory peers voted repeatedly to...

2009-11-25T09:22:46.237Z

@ Dick Puddlecote:

Tory peers voted repeatedly to scuttle the law, yes. And unfortunately they succeeded. What they did was unconscionable. There is no free speech justification for intentionally threatening others, and the amendment will only serve to make prosecution of genuine hate speech more difficult.

Re: your imagined scenario: no, as you describe what he says, the person who hopes gay people will suffer accidents would not be guilty of an offense. To repeat, for about the fourth time: the law prohibits threatening words only. Now, if someone promised to make sure that gay people met with an accident, or exhorted others to do likewise, that would be different.

You do not appear to know what an ad hominem argument is, because I have not directed any against you.

I must say I find it astonishing that you have the nerve to tell me that *I* must move on from Thatcher, when it is you who has repeatedly brought her up. For the record, I was not even 10 years old when Thatcher left office. It is fairly safe to say then, contrary to what you accuse me of, that I am not today eaten up by any political grievances acquired during her premiership.

Bit of a false expectation there. That it was a jo...

2009-11-25T09:17:42.147Z

Bit of a false expectation there. That it was a joke should have been obvious, and it was immediately apparent to any sensible, reasonable person that no-one was actually calling for an old woman to fall down or be cast down the stairs. Why should they apologise because someone overreacted or, worse, deliberately misrepresented their position?

The biggest problem I have with this, is that if t...

2009-11-25T09:07:55.287Z

The biggest problem I have with this, is that if they apologised and said "it was a joke, didn't really want an injury to occur, sorry", then this whole incident would have been forgotten now.

Soho - While Puddlecoat may have exaggerated, I don't think that he did in this case, as we have heard planty of comedians being in trouble over race. Not to mention that the Lords had to send an amendment 4 times to the commons so that I as a christian can condemn homosexual relations as immoral. If they hadn't, I could be charged with inciting hatred (even though I'm just clarifying my position).

Soho Politico: Keep defending the indefensible, eh...

2009-11-25T00:24:31.793Z

Soho Politico: Keep defending the indefensible, eh?

Didn't the Lords battle like crazy to stop Labour's gay hate law becoming a punishment on free speech?

You know they did.

So, tell me. If someone said it would be funny if a gay person was to suffer a nasty accident, potentially lethal, simply for being gay, would Labour's hate law kick in, or would it be deemed merely humourous badinage?

Cool over-exaggeration and ad homs though. Nice to see a Labour shill so aggravated. ;-)

Still bugs you that Thatcher destroyed socialism so comprehensively, doesn't it?

Isn't it time you moved on?

@Dick Puddlecote: It is you alone who is guilty o...

2009-11-24T22:57:29.809Z

@Dick Puddlecote:

It is you alone who is guilty of sensationalising. Your tirade was an attempt to mislead people about what the recent hate laws proscribe, and to imply, wrongly, that they penalise jokes and the mere voicing of criticism. They do not. As you full well know (or perhaps you don't?) one is guilty of the offense of stirring up hatred against religious groups or gay people if, and only if, one's speech is intentionally threatening. On that basis, saying that one hopes Thatcher, or anyone else, will be hurt is not hate speech, no. But by all means go on pretending that a justified law, protecting minorities against the deliberately threatening words and behaviour of others is really some sort of Stalinist plot.

This whole silly spat has kept me chuckling away o...

2009-11-24T22:41:17.388Z

This whole silly spat has kept me chuckling away on these dark November evenings :-)

"No referring to the identity of TB." T...

2009-11-24T21:56:44.552Z

"No referring to the identity of TB."

This is your first and only warning Timothy.

My sandpit my rules.

Harry, if you mean "I am rubber, you a...

2009-11-24T21:51:44.109Z

Harry, if you mean "I am rubber, you are glue!", then say "I am rubber, you are glue!"

Nobody's legislated against playground taunts.

Soho Politico: Is not wishing an accident on a fra...

2009-11-24T21:43:52.294Z

Soho Politico: Is not wishing an accident on a frail person because of her humiliation of Labour policy 20 or 30 years ago considered hate speech in Labour's world?

"Kill all queers" (which isn't the only thing that can be prosecuted under Labour's over-sensitive legislation, so stop sensationalising)? Isn't that the same sentiment as "I hope Thatcher is hurt badly cos wouldn't that be funny"?

Err ... and I think you'd better look up 'rant' in the dictionary.

Haha love the irony of Tim "Manic" o...

2009-11-24T21:41:36.455Z
Haha love the irony of Tim "Manic" obsessive? Ireland lecturing about banking on so little.

The man invented clutching at straws.

Legislation against words is ridiculous, by all me...

2009-11-24T21:38:28.853Z
Legislation against words is ridiculous, by all means be offended though.

"It's a real shame you felt the need t...

2009-11-24T21:35:54.866Z
"It's a real shame you felt the need to endorse Puddlecoat's garbage."

It's not as if he gave himself much choice after banking so much on so little.

Unfortunately in the past few years Labour has gon...

2009-11-24T21:31:24.996Z
Unfortunately in the past few years Labour has gone from being the party of the sturdy working classes to the party of social outcasts, rejects and other assorted losers. They want revenge for the fact that they were bullied at school so from now on nobody must be allowed to say anything mean ever again. Unless it's them taking a shot at their evil oppressors of course.

Puddlecoat's rant would be a joke if it weren&...

2009-11-24T21:24:44.818Z
Puddlecoat's rant would be a joke if it weren't so pernicious. There is a seismic difference between the offense of stirring up hatred ('Kill all queers' etc), which has been rightly made illegal, and what you here criticise Ellie Gellard and co. for saying in a tweet. To claim that they are the same is a gratuitous smack in the face to anyone who has experienced genuine hate speech. It's a real shame you felt the need to endorse Puddlecoat's garbage.

"The Last Word", you say. I'...

2009-11-24T20:48:55.204Z
"The Last Word", you say.

I'll take you at your word, worthless as it is.